When will the Rapture occur?

by **Susan** Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:17 pm

When will the Rapture occur? Before the TRIBULATION, during the TRIBULATION, or at the end of the TRIBULATION?

These questions have plagued many theologians over the years, and yes, there are three schools of thought, concerning when the Rapture may occur. In order to clear up some of the misconceptions I ask that you take a look at the Rapture scriptures, seperate from the Second Comming Scriptures. Most people confuse the Rapture, with the Second Coming.

How can the SAINTS return with CHRIST, IF they are not already with him? This is the one question that answered my concerns about when the Rapture might take place. The verse is one often missed:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

You also have to look at the verbage, and what tense it is written in. For example, Ephesians 2:6 is written in past tense, therefore we know that this event, Rapture, will have already taken place:

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Again the verbage is past tense, in Colossians:

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

So, my recommendation is to really study the Second Coming verses, seperate from the Rapture verses, and ask the LORD for guidance. I hope that this will help you, in DISCERNING the meaning behind the Rature and the Second Coming.

Most importantly, I cannot stress enough, that we should worry less about the Rapture, or when it might take place, and be concerned more with reaching the lost and dying world. There will come a time, when the LIGHT of this world, is removed, (Rapture). The HOLY SPIRIT, which dwells within us, will also be remoived, and the Son of Perdition, will have his way for a time.

Do I think that some may come to know CHRIST, during that period of time? Yes! The Scriptures do point to some being SAVED, during the TRIBULATION. They will be the ones that are left behind, and many are probably sitting in Churches now. So, they know the WORD, but they have never really answered the CALL to SALVATION. If GOD can send TWO WITNESSES, into this dark time, then HE can still SAVE SOULS. I say yes, because of these verses in the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice that there are two seperate thrusting of the sickle, mentioned in these verses. One thrust in to reap that which belongs to the LORD, and the second, to cast into the winepress of GOD'S wrath.

Please don't take my word for this, study the WORD for yourself.

by BornTwice Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:05 pm

Susan wrote:
When will the Rapture occur? Before the TRIBULATION, during the TRIBULATION, or at the end of the TRIBULATION?

These questions have plagued many theologians over the years, and yes, there are three schools of thought, concerning when the Rapture may occur. In order to clear up some of the misconceptions I ask that you take a look at the Rapture scriptures, seperate from the Second Comming scriptures. Most people confuse the Rapture, with the Second Coming.

How can the SAINTS return with CHRIST, IF they are not already with him? This is the one question that answered my concerns about when the Rapture might take place. The verse is one often missed:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

You also have to look at the verbage, and what tense it is written in. For example, Ephesians 2:6 is written in past tense, therefore we know that this event, Rapture, will have already taken place:

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Again the verbage is past tense, in Colossians:

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

So, my recommendation is to really study the Second Coming verses, seperate from the Rapture verses, and ask the LORD for guidance. I hope that this will help you, in DISCERNING the meaning behind the Rature and the Second Coming.

Most importantly, I cannot stress enough, that we should worry less about the Rapture, or when it might take place, and be concerned more with reaching the lost and dying world. There will come a time, when the LIGHT of this world, is removed, (Rapture). The HOLY SPIRIT, which dwells within us, will also be remoived, and the Son of Perdition, will have his way for a time.

Do I think that some may come to know CHRIST, during that period of time? Yes! The scriptures do point to some being SAVED, during the TRIBULATION. They will be the ones that are left behind, and many are probably sitting in Churches now. So, they know the WORD, but they have never really answered the CALL to SALVATION. If GOD can send TWO WITNESSES, into this dark time, then HE can still SAVE SOULS. I say yes, because of these verses in the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice that there are two seperate thrusting of the sickle, mentioned in these verses. One thrust in to reap that which belongs to the LORD, and the second, to cast into the winepress of GOD'S wrath.

Please don't take my word for this, study the WORD for yourself.

I believe the second coming is commonly misplaced by some. Some say rapture and second coming, some say only second coming. Sometimes I think that those that believe in 2 don't realize they are talking about the 2nd coming, just misplacing it within the layout of God's plans. IMHO..humble definitely.

Susan great question
[quote]How can the SAINTS return with CHRIST, IF they are not already with him?

Obviously they are with them and I believe Jude envisions us coming with the Lord to the Battle of Armaggedon. Which I believe happens after the second coming, he brings us there.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies in heaven clothed in fine lined, white and clean followed Him on white horses.

Jude 1:15 a picture of the 10 thousands of saints TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT TO THE UNGODLY.

In Ephesians 2, the only past tense I see is what was given to us at the resurrection,
v7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I see this as past and present and future tense

Susan<
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.>>

IS our LIFE, present tense
Shall Appear, future tense
then shall ye also, future tense

Colossians 3:1 If then you WERE raised with Christ, (at the resurrection),,,,,,,,,the rest says how we should live because of the resurrection

v 4 Then shall ye-future

Just my opinions regarding the text in the context
Yes we need studying and we must keep things within context of the message, in many scriptures I see the tense is extremely important, but I believe that colossians is how we ought be living, then he gives us hope for the future

sunny

I sometimes know how to work the quote thing, and then other times it seems to slip me, sorry if it doesn't work out this way

by BornTwice Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:15 pm

I wish I knew how to quote properly!!!!!!!!

by BornTwice Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:17 pm

Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice that there are two separate thrusting of the sickle, mentioned in these verses. One thrust in to reap that which belongs to the LORD, and the second, to cast into the winepress of GOD'S wrath.

Me:
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth Yes the first is the second coming, He's on the cloud the second sickle will be the wicked to cast into the wrath

Is that what you see?

by **Waqar Daniel** Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:24 am

Dear BornTwice

You asked how to quote, there are two ways to do, however, I am showing you a simpler way. When you want to quote just use the following code:

Code:: [quote]Write the comment you want to quote between these codes[/quote]

Result

Write the comment you want to quote between these codes

If you want to quote Susan with her name, then here is the code to do so;

Code:: [quote="Susan"]Write the comments of Susan in these codes[/quote]

Result

Susan wrote:Write the comments of Susan in these codes

I never comment on Revelation and the Book of Daniel. To me they are mysteries and I want them to remain like this. I am afraid of God and I may sin by a slip of tongue. However, regarding Rapture, here is the information:

Rapture
"Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raeptius; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caught up", or "taken away". "Harpazo" \har-pad'-zo\ Koine Greek; "forcibly snatched away", "taken for oneself".

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

God bless you

by **Susan** Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:50 pm

BornTwice wrote:
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice that there are two separate thrusting of the sickle, mentioned in these verses. One thrust in to reap that which belongs to the LORD, and the second, to cast into the winepress of GOD'S wrath.

Me:
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth Yes the first is the second coming, He's on the cloud the second sickle will be the wicked to cast into the wrath

Is that what you see?

Hi Borntwice, I appologise for it taking me so long to get back to your question.

I believe that the LORD will come again. It isn't important for me to say: "I believe this way , or that way". It is enough for me to know, HE will COME AGAIN. The WORD clearly tells us that no one knows the day or hour, but the FAHTER.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

So, we know that it isn't for us to know when, but to be fully prepared and watching.

There are three pre-conceived ideas, concerning when the rapture (ressurection of the Church), will take place. These are only man's theories. The three theories are: pre-rapture, mid-rapture, or post-rapture. In ALL TRUTH, we don't know the LORD'S final plans, regarding when this event will happen. We do however, have HIS WORD, which gives us hints of what SIGNS we are to look for. This is why it is important to SEARCH out all the SCRIPTURES, to understand what this event means for us, as Christians, and what the SIGNS of HIS COMING is all about.

One message through out the BOOK of REVELATION, is quite simply for us to be on watch. Look at the word: "behold":

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (KJV)

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (KJV)

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (KJV)

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (KJV)

We know from reading just through these few scriptures, that:

HE cometh with clouds
Every eye shall see HIM
HE will come quickly
HE comes as a thief
HIS REWARD is with HIM
It will be HIS TESTIMONY.

by BornTwice Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:27 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Dear BornTwice

You asked how to quote, there are two ways to do, however, I am showing you a simpler way. When you want to quote just use the following code:

Code:
[quote]Write the comment you want to quote between these codes[/quote]

Result
Write the comment you want to quote between these codes

If you want to quote Susan with her name, then here is the code to do so;

Code:
[quote="Susan"]Write the comments of Susan in these codes[/quote]

Result
Susan wrote:Write the comments of Susan in these codes

I never comment on Revelation and the Book of Daniel. To me they are mysteries and I want them to remain like this. I am afraid of God and I may sin by a slip of tongue. However, regarding Rapture, here is the information:

Rapture
"Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raeptius; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caught up", or "taken away". "Harpazo" \har-pad'-zo\ Koine Greek; "forcibly snatched away", "taken for oneself".
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
God bless you

Daniel
Thank you for showing me how to quote
I didn't realize how computer illiterate I could be, lol!

Blessings
in Jesus Forever!
roni

by BornTwice Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:43 pm

Susan wrote:
BornTwice wrote:
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice that there are two separate thrusting of the sickle, mentioned in these verses. One thrust in to reap that which belongs to the LORD, and the second, to cast into the winepress of GOD'S wrath.

Me:
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth Yes the first is the second coming, He's on the cloud the second sickle will be the wicked to cast into the wrath

Is that what you see?
Hi Borntwice, I appologise for it taking me so long to get back to your question.

I believe that the LORD will come again. It isn't important for me to say: "I believe this way , or that way". It is enough for me to know, HE will COME AGAIN. The WORD clearly tells us that no one knows the day or hour, but the FAHTER.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

So, we know that it isn't for us to know when, but to be fully prepared and watching.

There are three pre-conceived ideas, concerning when the rapture (ressurection of the Church), will take place. These are only man's theories. The three theories are: pre-rapture, mid-rapture, or post-rapture. In ALL TRUTH, we don't know the LORD'S final plans, regarding when this event will happen. We do however, have HIS WORD, which gives us hints of what SIGNS we are to look for. This is why it is important to SEARCH out all the SCRIPTURES, to understand what this event means for us, as Christians, and what the SIGNS of HIS COMING is all about.

One message through out the BOOK of REVELATION, is quite simply for us to be on watch. Look at the word: "behold":

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (KJV)

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (KJV)

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (KJV)

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (KJV)

We know from reading just through these few scriptures, that:

HE cometh with clouds
Every eye shall see HIM
HE will come quickly
HE comes as a thief
HIS REWARD is with HIM
It will be HIS TESTIMONY.

susan
There are three pre-conceived ideas, concerning when the rapture (ressurection of the Church), will take place. These are only man's theories. The three theories are: pre-rapture, mid-rapture, or post-rapture.<<

me
i agree that it is not me to know the hour, etc

i'm not even sure which of my beliefs fit where, lol
i think i know man's theories, but truly i only have my own theories

i have read a pre trib theory book and by the time i was done with it in between reading the Word, i'd made my mind up i was def. not pre trib.

i have dabbled in other's writings to see what and where they put things, but for the most part, i don't have a pre-conceived notion, i started out hearing everyone at my church talk about this pre trib rapture and so as i read the scriptures that they were talking about, i was very confused and dug deeper and the last trump was what did it for me. i don't buy into the last trump, not being the 7th trump.
blessings
roni

i got to go

by debait Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:16 pm

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I have to think if Paul admonished the flock of the day to "comfort one another with these words" it must have been because they imply a deliverance from tribulation. Remember these folks were already being fed to lions. What did they have to lose?

I believe in pre trib.

Here is more comfort...

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Tribulation is God induced and devil supported. But why the comfort quotes if so be we must endure even this? Colour me stupid. (LOL)

I wonder why so many folks want to tribulate? God says "fear not" many, many times in scripture...only to kill us or let the devil have his way with us in the end? Not really sensible...

by BornTwice Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:58 pm

debait wrote:1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I have to think if Paul admonished the flock of the day to "comfort one another with these words" it must have been because they imply a deliverance from tribulation. Remember these folks were already being fed to lions. What did they have to lose?

I believe in pre trib.

Here is more comfort...

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Tribulation is God induced and devil supported. But why the comfort quotes if so be we must endure even this? Colour me stupid. (LOL)

I wonder why so many folks want to tribulate? God says "fear not" many, many times in scripture...only to kill us or let the devil have his way with us in the end? Not really sensible...

Thank you for pointing out the comfort, as is necessary and desired, debait.

I pray that I am wrong, I just don't believe that the tribulation period is the same as the wrath period.

by debait Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:10 am

BornTwice wrote:
debait wrote:1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I have to think if Paul admonished the flock of the day to "comfort one another with these words" it must have been because they imply a deliverance from tribulation. Remember these folks were already being fed to lions. What did they have to lose?

I believe in pre trib.

Here is more comfort...

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Tribulation is God induced and devil supported. But why the comfort quotes if so be we must endure even this? Colour me stupid. (LOL)

I wonder why so many folks want to tribulate? God says "fear not" many, many times in scripture...only to kill us or let the devil have his way with us in the end? Not really sensible...

Thank you for pointing out the comfort, as is necessary and desired, debait.

I pray that I am wrong, I just don't believe that the tribulation period is the same as the wrath period.

I have been told a time or two that there are separate events...scripture refers to an appearing and also to a coming. Sundry NT references. Appearing seems to coincide with "catching away" scripture. Coming seems to coincide with end of the age and the great round up of souls.

Why would one assume that the wrath and tribulation are not contiguous? Am I in for new meat? I like beef jerky. It is tasty and chewy.

by BornTwice Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:47 pm

Debait, I promise I will come with something to answer your question.....

For now I leave, what I ponder with

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

by BornTwice Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:22 pm

Other verses I'm pondering
trying to allow the scriptures to interpret themselves

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.[i]

by BornTwice Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:59 pm

debait wrote:
BornTwice wrote:
debait wrote:1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I have to think if Paul admonished the flock of the day to "comfort one another with these words" it must have been because they imply a deliverance from tribulation. Remember these folks were already being fed to lions. What did they have to lose?

I believe in pre trib.

Here is more comfort...

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Tribulation is God induced and devil supported. But why the comfort quotes if so be we must endure even this? Colour me stupid. (LOL)

I wonder why so many folks want to tribulate? God says "fear not" many, many times in scripture...only to kill us or let the devil have his way with us in the end? Not really sensible...

Thank you for pointing out the comfort, as is necessary and desired, debait.

I pray that I am wrong, I just don't believe that the tribulation period is the same as the wrath period.

I have been told a time or two that there are separate events...scripture refers to an appearing and also to a coming. Sundry NT references. Appearing seems to coincide with "catching away" scripture. Coming seems to coincide with end of the age and the great round up of souls.

Why would one assume that the wrath and tribulation are not contiguous? Am I in for new meat? I like beef jerky. It is tasty and chewy.

Debait, I haven't had time to reference this subject with scripture...this is what I can say for now

Jesus spoke of tribulation AND GREAT TRIBULATION, I think

But back to your question

Wrath = anger and punishment
Tribulation = trial and endurance

And then there are the bowl judgements from Rev

But hopefully we can discuss this more later

by BornTwice Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:21 pm

debait
I thought I posted an answer to this, it was all about the scriptures that talk about tribulation

I guess I didn't post it properly, it was a long one

Oh well

I am now pondering "the falling away", if that apostasia is departing from the faith or departing as in rapture.

by **Waqar Daniel** Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:53 am

You do not need to quote the whole reply in your answer as it is already there. If you want to quote then please quote the relevant part that you want to comment if necessary, if not then just answer the post.

God bless you

by **Susan** Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:11 am

BornTwice wrote:
I am now pondering "the falling away", if that apostasia is departing from the faith or departing as in rapture.

Hi Borntwice.

You are not alone in wondering aout "the falling way". Our Pastor has part of this in last night's Sermon. I will pull my note a little later on today, and post them. (Right now, I am home schooling my grandson. I love you

)

by BornTwice Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:16 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:You do not need to quote the whole reply in your answer as it is already there.

God bless you

this is a test, to see if this works
sorry that i have posted wrong
please be patient

by Adstar Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:52 am

I am a post-trib rapture believer. People tend to get overly passionate about their rapture timing beliefs which is sad because rapture timing should not be seen as a central doctrine of our faith. It is a disputable matter. We should not be straining at a gnat.

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.

Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.

There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.

Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21

It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"

Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:

1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:

51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.

So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:

Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:

Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

Now This brings up the belief in two resurrections. The resurrection of the saints that happens at the second coming and the resurrection of the rest of mankind at the end of the 1000 years for the great final Judgement. The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly states that their will be two distinct resurrections one at the return of the Messiah Jesus and another at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus:

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

satanic Rebellion Crushed
(1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

I hope this has been a blessing to you all Smile

But no matter what you come to believe on the issue of rapture timing as long as we are ready to die today and face the Lord we are ready for rapture no matter when it happens and we are ready for tribulation no matter where it comes from Wink

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

by **Susan** Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:49 pm

Susan wrote:
BornTwice wrote:
I am now pondering "the falling away", if that apostasia is departing from the faith or departing as in rapture.
Hi Borntwice.

You are not alone in wondering aout "the falling way". Our Pastor has part of this in last night's Sermon. I will pull my note a little later on today, and post them. (Right now, I am home schooling my grandson. )

Wow, I do apologize, for not posting those notes. I'll see if I still have them. Embarassed

by **Susan** Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:55 pm

Adstar wrote:I am a post-trib rapture believer. People tend to get overly passionate about their rapture timing beliefs which is sad because rapture timing should not be seen as a central doctrine of our faith. It is a disputable matter. We should not be straining at a gnat.

...

[i]I hope this has been a blessing to you all But no matter what you come to believe on the issue of rapture timing as long as we are ready to die today and face the Lord we are ready for rapture no matter when it happens and we are ready for tribulation no matter where it comes from

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar, your always a BLESSING!

I agree with the fact that you stated. Be "ready for the rapture, no matter when it happens." And, "it is not the central doctrine of our faith."

cheers

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